Whenever I point out to people that there is no difference between Christianity and Islam, someone always brings up terrorism. Generally, it’s coaxed in denial of the existence of such Christian terrorists as Timothy McVeigh; occasionally, the critic is sophisticated enough to recognize that Christian terrorism exists, but says it’s not so bad as Islamic terrorism.
In fact, there difference between the levels of terrorism the two religions cause is entirely attributable to anti-terrorist action and European racism.
In Christian countries, there’s a significant contingent of Dominionists, which has a militia minority; in Muslim countries, there’s a significant contingent of Islamists, which has a Jihadi minority. So far, there’s no difference. Where there is a difference is in the governments.
The United States has a functioning government that’s strong enough to crack down on domestic terrorism. Since it would be unthinkable for it to bomb Idaho, it uses police tactics against the militia movement, which are largely successful at curbing it.
In contrast, the Saudi government is not a modern state capable of cracking down on its extremists – developing countries tend to be like that. Most Jihadists in Saudi Arabia never leave their home country, but there are enough of them that those who do used to be a formidable threat (though they no longer are).
The first-world countries these international Jihadists target obviously try getting rid of them, but their governments opt for treating terrorism as a military problem, which doesn’t work. Bombing Iraq produces less of a backlash among Americans than bombing Montana, and Iraqis can’t vote in American elections.
Now, lately Islamist anti-Western terrorism comes not from Islamic countries, but from European Muslims. A good place to start when looking at the difference between Christians and Muslims would be identity. After all, the one Western country with a significant Muslim minority without Jihadism, Canada, is the one country where that minority is not pressured to develop its own religious identity by a racist system.
And indeed, most countries with Christian minorities don’t impose a Christian identity on Christians. It’s a lot easier to be a Christian in Turkey than a Muslim in France. Some do, but there’s no charismatic leader like Bin Laden who can transform this Christian identity into a militia one.
Dominionism is largely an intra-US movement. Dominionists don’t need a worldwide revolution; they’re based in a sufficiently powerful country that it’s a lot easier for them to take over that one country and then use it to launch wars of aggression against the rest of the world. Call it the Christianity in one country policy. Pat Robertson isn’t interested in inspiring non-Americans to do anything but bow to their American masters, for that is how American patriotism works; even if he were, he would lack the charisma to do so (though I presume some of the people in his movement don’t).
Abstract Nonsense 
Maybe another difference to take into account is the level of popular support in each religious system for its fringe/violent/fundamentalist fraction. Though most of this suport inside Islam for the Jihadis can be attributed to socio-economic factors (poor societies tend to solve problems by violence more than wealthy ones), there is certainly some influence coming from the belief itself. You won’t find such wide popular support for McVeigh or for the train of thinking he represents inside the Chrstian populace.
I’m not sure there’s a difference here. For every bonehead in Palestine who cheered when the Twins collapsed, there’s a bonehead in the US commenting on Little Green Footballs saying that the US should exterminate all Muslims.
In both cases, a tiny minority is violent. A slightly bigger minority cheers the violent fringe on. And a much bigger group turns a blind eye to the violent fringe, concentrating on destroying liberty by peaceful means.
“It’s a lot easier to be a Christian in Turkey than a Muslim in France.”
If your goal was to provide an example of Muslim tolerance then you could have hardly picked a worse example than Turkey.
, of the 200000 Greeks that lived in Constantinople in 1955 only 1500 (almost entirely elderly) remain, and of the 100000 Armenians that lived there then only 20000 remain, and the both numbers are shrinking. The few that remain suffer nonstop harassment that the authorities remain completely indifferent to. Nor will I elaborate on Turkey’s continuing efforts to deny the Armenian Holocaust, or it’s genocidal policies against Kurds and (Christian) Assyrians that have left 50000-100000 civilians dead over the last 15 years in the “southeast.”
Suffice to say, the general consensus among Levantine Christians is that Turkey is one of the worst nations in the region in which to reside – most would rather live in Syria, Lebanon or Israel. When France has net Muslim emigration instead of immigration, then you will be entitled to say that “it’s easier to be a Christian in Turkey than a Muslim in France.”
The examples you give are historical, not contemporary. Right now, there isn’t any widespread problem of discrimination against Christians in Turkey; there is such a problem in France. There is no ghettoization in Turkey; there is in France.
“I’m not sure there’s a difference here. For every bonehead in Palestine who cheered when the Twins collapsed, there’s a bonehead in the US commenting on Little Green Footballs saying that the US should exterminate all Muslims”
It might be that what figures I saw on the Net aren’t really accurate, but a recent poll shows Palestinians suport Hezbollah and Hamas tactics in large numbers (I forget the source, but I’m sure you can find it online – it was an Palestinian/Israeli research). I don’t have similar polls in the Western Europe and/or the US, but I doubt (allow me an opinion here!) the “war on terror” enjoys levels of support on the same range, not to mention that strongarm tactics on the part of the US are widely criticized (remeber the EU fretting over black CIA prisons?)
Of course, as we say here, every forest has a few rotten trees. But somehow the “general mood” is NOT the same in Islam and Chirstendom.
That is not to say I support “war on terror” in its present, inept, military-only form. I’d very much like to see open dialogue between the two cultures, free of any threat, “offense taken” and so on. I’m quite positive that Muslim world will, eventualy, open up. But until then, it doesn’t hurt to “keep one’s gunpowder dry”…
” Right now, there isn’t any widespread problem of discrimination against Christians in Turkey; there is such a problem in France. ”
And I’m certain that every Christian that has lived in Constantinople in the last decade would strongly disagree with you, including several in my own family. But I’m certain you have far more knowledge about the situation than I, safely ensconced in NYC and all.
“There is no ghettoization in Turkey; there is in France. ”
Odd then that virtually all Anatolian Christians left in their indigenous homeland live in two districts in Constantinople – Pera (Beyoglu) and Phanaria (Fener). But of course, that’s not “ghettoization.”
nota bene: These two situations are morally incommeasurable. French Muslims are immigrants, and thusly can be required to accept the moral norms of the host society in return for the privilege of immigration. Asia Minor Christians, on the other hand, are the last remnent of the indigenous people of Anatolia, and therefore the Turks – descendents of various Mongolian tribes that attacked the Byzantine Empire from 1000-1500 AD – have no right to impose restrictions upon their cultural practice.
As I dropped off my sons at school this morning, as usual I saw plenty of other parents dropping off their kids as well. Lots of Muslim moms in their head-scarves, Jewish parents, blacks, Asians, caucasians, and lots of interracial couples, all dropping off their cute little kids with a kiss (and cordially greeting the other parents) in the classroom where they all play and learn together.
On my way to work, as usual, I walk past a kosher market and past the big stone synagogue. I also pass a familiar bronze statue, and this morning I found it cheerfully decorated with garland — from last night’s Ramadan festivities, I assume.
I stopped by my local convenience store this morning and out of curiosity looked at all of the interesting items in the special aisle they’ve set up to sell treats for Ramadan.
Continuing on my walk to work, I pass a bunch of Islamic and hallal food shops and restaurants opening up for the morning, the shopkeeps sweeping the sidewalk out front, and older guys sitting at tables on the sidewalk drinking their morning tea or coffee. I pick up the local paper and see a cute little human interest feature of a local girl talking about her Ramadan plans.
Now, I’m not naive enough to imagine that all of France is like my neighborhood nor naive enough to imagine that there isn’t a bunch of racism and hostility hiding under this rosy surface. I’ve learned from reading things Americans write on the Internet that in fact the French are a bunch of big racists.
Please don’t point me at a bunch of studies and statistics, I’ll just grant for the sake of argument your claim that France is exceptionally racist, and has way more ghettoization than other countries like, say, the US. It makes me wonder how France became such a hateful, evil country. Maybe it’s because it’s full of atheists — atheism is a totally mainstream position here. And every good American knows the French are evil just like atheists are evil. See? It all makes sense when you think about it…
One of these days I’m going to do a serious post about racism in France, particularly towards Jews and Muslims — what real problems do exist here, and also describe points where things are looking up.
By the way, sorry all my comments on your blog are always so antagonistic. Really, I like your blog and read it all the time.
The funny thing is that I agree with your premise here that it’s important to recognize that every culture has the potential to produce dangerous militants — it’s not something unique to Islam. Blaming the problem on Islam per se, is counterproductive because it increases exactly the us-vs-them mentality that produces and encourages violent extremists.
C. L., France isn’t unusually racist for the region. I talk about France a lot because I’m more familiar with the details of French racism than with these of German or Dutch racism, but as far as I can tell, they’re all equally bad. I’m not sure about Scandinavia, but from what I know of Danish immigration policy, it’s probably no better.
It’s not a question of atheism. It’s a question of two things: first, experience with immigrants, and second, the national conception of immigration and culture.
The US and Canada are immigrant nations, and as such are far more accepting of immigrants than Europe (incidentally, both are less accepting of native exploited minorities – blacks in the US, and native Americans in both). France is more of an immigrant nation than any other European nation, but its model of assimilation, in which everyone’s equally French, has made it unable to learn from that experience.
Second, even in the present, the French model of “everyone’s equally French” doesn’t work. It makes it impossible to detect and fight discrimination. American conservatives’ policies of choice on affirmative action and cultural assimilation already exist in France. As far as I can tell, Belgium has the same policy, with similarly disastrous results. Germany’s policy of not granting immigrants’ children citizenship is obviously even worse (I think that’s what’s used in Scandinavia, but I’m not sure).
The failure of Britain and Holland is more interesting. They do the exact opposite of what France does: they impose a racial identity on immigrants. Whereas the US and Canada tell immigrants, “Do what you want to do – if you want to assimilate, assimilate, and if you want to express your own culture, express your own culture,” and France tells them, “You must act French,” Britain and Holland say, “You’re Muslims and should act like that.” On top of that, their enforcement of anti-discrimination laws is lax, which is always a ghettoizing policy.
Seph, what’s the Christian unemployment rate in Turkey, and what’s the general rate? The most shocking retrievable figures from Europe deal with Muslims’ unemployment rates, which are typically three to four times the national average (in contrast, African-Americans are unemployed at twice the national rate, and Hispanic Americans at a rate slightly higher than the national average).
Cottonbud, Palestine and Lebanon are special cases – Palestine’s under occupation, and Lebanon was under a bombing campaign. Although a majority of Palestinians supports the intifada, only a small minority supports Islamism; Hamas got 44% in the election, and polls show that only about a third of its voters voted for it rather than against the corrupt Fatah.
It is true that France is more of an immigrant nation than others in Europe and that there’s a huge assimilationist sentiment in general, namely that if you live here you should be French.
However, the claim that Muslims here are being pressured to abandon their Muslim identity in favor of a Christian one is not true.
Of course I shouldn’t get pissed-off and write snarky comments since really I’m opposed to nationalism on principle, but I just get tired and worn-down by this constant France-bashing from the US, from the right because they just really do hate France, and from the left because they like to demonstrate how unbiased they are…
I think a good analogy to understand the racism problems in France would be to compare the situation of Muslims here with the situation of blacks in the US. It’s not a perfect analogy, but it’s fairly close in terms of racism, discrimination, economic disadvantage, and ghettoization. The French car burnings that Americans apparently all saw on the news were mostly focused around suburban housing projects. However, to say that all Muslims in France live in ghettoized housing projects or that they are forced to live there is kind of like saying that all blacks in the US are forced to live in ghettoized housing projects. Similar forces and disadvantages keep them a large population of them there.
One difference is that the Muslims in France have a connection with Muslims worldwide, so every time something bad happens in the Middle East, we get an echo of it here. Every time something bad happens in the Middle East, the local police station a patrol car in front of the local synagogue at night. I assume this is to prevent anti-semetic vandalism. It appears to be an effective tactic, although it’s not clear there would have been any anti-semetic vandalism even without the police presence.
(Now that I think about it, I didn’t notice any local reaction to the Pope’s recent statement — I suspect most of my local friends’ reaction was something like “pfft, who listens to the Pope?”)
Just in my normal wanderings about town over the past several years, I’ve seen a number of pro-Palestine, anti-Israel demonstrations and anti-Israel political stickers, etc. (Not to exaggerate, there constantly political demonstrations here of all stripes, and pro-Basque stickers are more than a hundred times more frequently sighted than anti-Israel or pro-Palestine stickers.)
However, if I mention any of the anti-Israel stuff to Americans on the Internet, they immediately say “Aha!!! Those anti-Semitic French!!!”
Then if I say “Well, actually all of the anti-Israel stuff I’ve seen was pretty clearly organized by the local Muslim population…” I get a chorus of “Oh, you Muslim-hating French!!!”
So what I’m trying to say is that it’s a complex situation, and simplistically blame everything on “French racism” is not constructive.
Yes, they prevent kids from wearing religious symbols to school. But to suggest that Muslims here are being pressured to abandon their Muslim identity in favor of a Christian identity is false.
If you were here you would see for yourself that openly-identified Muslims are a common and ordinary part of French society. One of the kids in my son’s class is named “Jihad”. No kidding. It’s far from being the only Muslim name in the class, but it’s one that kind of stands out. I don’t think parents would name their kid that and then send him to an ordinary highly-ethnically-diverse French school if they weren’t pretty confident about their Muslim identity.
Similarly, one of the moms dropping off her kid this morning was dressed in an African dress with African-style head-wrap. That’s very common, and I only noticed in in particular today because of your post. It wouldn’t occur to people here to take an attitude of “Hey, go back to Africa if you can’t dress like a French person!”
The “you must assimilate” attitude is far more centered around speaking the language than it is around any other trappings of religion or culture.
What I’ve seen first-hand is that in France the downtowns are compact, vibrant, and incredibly integrated and diverse (unlike the situation in the US where the “inner city” is generally full of poverty and crime, and everyone who can afford to moves out to the wonderbread suburbs). And while I’m sure that there is quite a lot of nativist racism in France, to be honest what I’ve seen first-hand has been people of all races, native French and immigrants like me, getting along and treating each other as just ordinary people.
I think a good analogy to understand the racism problems in France would be to compare the situation of Muslims here with the situation of blacks in the US. It’s not a perfect analogy, but it’s fairly close in terms of racism, discrimination, economic disadvantage, and ghettoization.
Yeah, it is a good analogy, and surprisingly, black Americans come off as less oppressed. The one statistic I have is unemployment: the African-American unemployment rate is twice the national average, whereas the Arab-French rate is three times the national average (which is already double the USA’s), and the Turkish-German rate is four times the national average.
France thinks it’s beneath its dignity to take racial statistics, but I don’t think there’s any chance employed Arab-French people make more on the white Euro than employed Pakistani/Bangladeshi-Brits make on the white pound; in Britain a male of Pakistani or Bangladeshi descent who works full-time makes 53 pence on the white male pound (in the US, a black male who works full-time makes 78 cents on the white male dollar).
What I’ve seen first-hand is that in France the downtowns are compact, vibrant, and incredibly integrated and diverse (unlike the situation in the US where the “inner city” is generally full of poverty and crime, and everyone who can afford to moves out to the wonderbread suburbs).
Well, that’s another story, of course. French cities are very much like New York in this regard: the inner city is incredibly integrated and diverse (though still a lot less than it looks), and the suburbs are extremely segregated. Right now the US is moving in France’s direction, actually, with the rise of the exurbs; the difference is more and more simply in the level of sprawl, which is far worse here than in France.
Yes, they prevent kids from wearing religious symbols to school. But to suggest that Muslims here are being pressured to abandon their Muslim identity in favor of a Christian identity is false.
It’s not a Christian identity but a French one. It’s assumed that everyone’s equally French, which is why it’s illegal for the government to collect any ethnic or racial data, and why France doesn’t bill itself as a North American-style immigrant nation even though it can.
Interestingly, many Russian political writers are openly advocating what they call “Frankophonia” or “the post-war French model” as the best if not only way for Russia to reconcile all its ethnic national minorities with the ethnic Russian majority and create one “citizen nation of Russia”.
Actually, that model is not that dumb when everybody has the same skin color. First, it’s easier to assimilate that way; European immigrants to the United States could assimilate in ways that non-European minorities couldn’t. It’s harder to discriminate against, say, Italians, when you can’t tell if someone’s Italian or not. And second, this may not apply to Russia, but European nations have been more racist toward non-Europeans than toward Europeans of other nations since the Renaissance. The French model works perfectly in a racism-free country.
Timothy McVeigh was Christian the way Boy George is Anglican. Raised Catholic, McVeigh only spoke to a priest at his parents’ insistence, and there is strong evidence he called himself agnostic.
And how would you define ‘Dominionist’? Are you claiming that Lebanon has a militia of Christian Reconstructionists? Or that other Christian nations have large ‘Dominionist’ militas? If so… whom?
Saudi Arabs spend over $6 BILLION a year on overseas travel and the Saudi governments sends literally thousands of college students to study in America, Australia, the UK, Japan, etc. every year. Sounds like they get out a bit more than you think. Add in the number of Saudi johadists who traveled to Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation, the number in the Bekaa Valley, the number in Iraq, Syria, etc. and I think you might be more off than you think. Touch that up with details of the lives of the 9/11 hijackers and the fact that they blended in with the large number of Islamic students and immigrants in Europe and North America and, well, I think you don’t know what you are talking about when you say johadis stay home.
“Treating terrorism as military problem doesn’t work”? Tell that to the Brits. The IRA did quote well, thank you, for decades as a ‘law enforcement problem’, escalating attacks, growing stronger, recruiting more and more members. The Loyalists Brigades did the same. It was only after 10+ years of using the *military* in conjunction with law enforcement that IRA was convinced they couldn’t win.
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And your statement that “… theone Western country with a significant Muslim minority without Jihadism, Canada… ” is a howler. Let me direct you to the night of June 2nd, 2006, when 17 jihadists were arrested in Toronto. All lived in Canada, all regularly attended mosques where anti-Western invective was common and accepted, all were engaged in plotting terror attacks in Canada. The World Assembly of Muslim Youth hold camps in Canada where they openly advocate jihad, laud suicide bombers, and hope to teach children the goal of being a martyr for Islam.
And that is your fatal conceptualization flaw – jihadists don’t want to kill and destroy because they are poor (Osama isn’t poor, nor are his lieutenants, nor the majority of his top people. Most 9/11 hijackers had nice jobs in the West), nor because of racism (after all, they tried to topple the King of Jordan – hardly an anti-Arab racist, and Saudi Arabia spends a fortune to control jihadis *inside* Saudi Arabia), nor because of war.
Jihadis do what they do because they feel they must.
It is interesting to me that you chose Timothy McVeigh as an example of a Christian terrorist. I would suggest reading the book “The Third Terrorist” by Jayna Davis which discusses her investigation of the Murrah Federal Building Bombing and McVeigh & Nichols ties to Islamic Extremists. She has over 60 notarized affadavidts of people who possess information about these things and so far only a few people in our government have acknowledged her work. You can read more about her work regarding McVeigh and Nichols here: http://www.jaynadavis.com
Here are two of the endorsements of her investigative work.
http://www.jaynadavis.com/endorsements.html
“This fascinating product of Jayna Davis’s near-decade of brave, thorough, and dogged investigative reporting effectively shifts the burden of proof to those who would still contend that McVeigh and Nichols executed the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing without the support of a group or groups from the Middle East.”
– R. James Woolsey
Director of Central Intelligence, 1993-95
“Looking at the Jayna Davis material, what’s clear is that more than Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were involved. Without a doubt, there’s a Middle Eastern tie to the Oklahoma City bombing.”
Larry Johnson
Fmr. Deputy Director of Counterterrorism
for the State Department & CIA Analyst
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As far as stating that Christianity and Islam are the same… if that is truly your belief than I doubt anything I can say will persuade you from believing that.
I would like you to name just one group that has perpetrated the kind of violence against innocents that is done on a daily basis in the name of Allah. Whereas, I can name ten such groups that self-identify as Islamic Jihadists who are known world-wide and have killed tens of thousands between them. Then you must also consider Shari’a or Islamic law – there is no nation on Earth at the present time, save for Islamic nations that stone women to death for being raped… Or beat women for showing their ankles as was done under Taliban rule.
As far as our Homeland Security deparment busting terrorists, I would be interested to know the statistics that apply to those they have arrested over the last 10 years within our country…
I personally don’t know any Muslim who would agree that Christianity and Islam are the same, either…
Just my $.02…
I would like you to name just one group that has perpetrated the kind of violence against innocents that is done on a daily basis in the name of Allah.
To name only organizations associated or allied with the West (there are many others): the US military, the CIA, the Catholic Church, any fascist regime, the Zionist resistance movements in pre-independence Israel…
Unless, of course, you’re the sort of person who thinks that the Crusades were all about freeing innocent people from the yoke of Islam, or that Columbus never killed a single native American.
Whereas, I can name ten such groups that self-identify as Islamic Jihadists who are known world-wide and have killed tens of thousands between them.
The LTTE has killed 16,000 civilians. Can you name an Islamist organization that has killed as many people?
It is interesting to me that you chose Timothy McVeigh as an example of a Christian terrorist. I would suggest reading the book “The Third Terrorist” by Jayna Davis which discusses her investigation of the Murrah Federal Building Bombing and McVeigh & Nichols ties to Islamic Extremists.
Ah, the old “he may have known people who had loose ties with suspected Jihadists” trope that gets applied to every terrorist, even if he’s fairly clearly motivated by white supremacy and survivalism.
“Treating terrorism as military problem doesn’t work”? Tell that to the Brits. The IRA did quote well, thank you, for decades as a ‘law enforcement problem’, escalating attacks, growing stronger, recruiting more and more members. The Loyalists Brigades did the same. It was only after 10+ years of using the *military* in conjunction with law enforcement that IRA was convinced they couldn’t win.
Why, did Britain invade Ireland? That would be the appropriate equivalent of how the US treats terrorism. So far, American Homeland Security has yet to score a public success against terrorism, compared with Britain’s success with the 8/10 plot, which was entirely the result of good old-fashioned police work. This despite the fact that the military solution is supposed to be more open, since you can openly talk about your killing people who’re about to commit terrorist attacks but not about infiltrating them.
What do you mean “there is no difference between Christianity and Islam”..?!?!
there are LOTS of differences!
Terrorism doesn’t even have to do with the RELIGION, it has to do with culture/race, society, and individuals.
If you want to talk about something and term it as religion, then please refer to where it originates.. The holy book; Qur’an and the Bible. Not from the people who disobey them.
Alon Levy treats lightly the historical past focusing on the contemporary situation. However, it seems to me that the numbers speak for themselves. When a minority grows large, it becomes a destabilizing factor to the traditional status quo. It would be nice if it were not so, but when part of the population gains rights and power, the other part tends to lose rights and power. It is a matter of struggle for the former and a matter of great concern to the latter. It seems most countries have had to face this issue at one time or another and deal with it in different ways. In France’s case, it appears large minorities are left to form ghettos. In Turkey’s case, it appears they reduced their minorities to nominal non-threatening numbers and can be proud that they now get along well with the “hold-outs. ”
As to the dinky Christian population in today’s Turkey, is it not so that when Christianity was the state religion of the Byzantine Empire, Christianity had 1400 years of development in Anatolia? 600 years later, what has happened to all those Christians? I assume not all Anatolian Byzantines were killed off in various wars with the Ottomans, can it be that many nationally Turkish Muslims, in fact, are descended from Byzantine Christians who traded their faith for inducements they could not resist? These are very old arguments and such solutions, admittedly, were not unique to Turkey, but it is impossible to look at the present without examining the past.
How stupid are you really, Timothy McVeigh and Nicols Christian Terrorist is that the best you can do?..one man with no CHRISTIAN following is a Christian Terrorist or Eric Rudolph PLEASE, if both of these men wore blue shoes would you call them the blue shoe TERRORISTS?. or if both of these guys frequented a gay bar and both happened to be gay would you call them GAY? TERRORISTS.
as far as the Bible it dose not tell the reader to go kill any one yes in the old Testament God spoke of Killing . but no where dose it say go kill non believers, secondly the Crusades were a Military excursion in to Jerusalem to RE take the city, THE MOST HOLY CITY IN THE WORLD TO CHRISTIANS back from the MUSLIMS WHO CONQUERED IT. IF Mecca were Conquered by anyone today do you think the Muslims would be ok with that??.
Christianity is compared to Islam using every piece of Propaganda and innuendo Muslims and ATHEISTS can Muster, Joseph Goebles had nothing on you guys, If you had been alive in 1931 Hitler would have made you or a Muslim the Prime Minister of Propaganda not J. Gobles
Islam is going to have a 100 mph head on collision with all non muslim cultures. The impact of this collision is going to be lethal. The infrastructures of most Islamic nations will be totally obliterated. Islam will be pulverized back into a stone age civilization with a bewildered remnant of a population that has dropped from 1.6 billion to a mere 30 or forty million. The war will be an epic international blood bath which virtually wipes out 1/4 of the worlds population killing 1.5 billion muslims. The question is what will trigger this cataclysmic eruption ethnic cleansing event.
Hey, found your site by accident doing a search on Google but I’ll definitely be coming back. I ran into Isosceles. He had a great idea for a new triangle! Woody Allen Born 1935
coffee machines…
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