Gender Inequality

Commenter Hujo asked me for evidence that there exists systematic gender inequality, so I’m only too happy to oblige.

First, everyone knows or at least should know about the wage gap. A big chunk of it is obvious discrimination. In fact, one study that Echidne quoted in her wage gap series reveals that upscale restaurants discriminate against women in hiring even more than against minorities, who already get a very short end of the stick. The study had men and women who were matched for qualifications and skills apply for the same jobs; 48% of the men got an offer, compared with 9% of the women.

Second, the standard anti-feminist explanation of the gap, that women choose to stay home, actually underlies another discrimination mechanism. One of the authors of The Motherhood Manifesto explained on Feministing:

[Link] Best Buy innovators turned Best Buy’s corporate offices, which includes about 2,000 employees, into a results-only work environment, so that all employees, mothers and non-mothers, men and women, have completely flexible work hours as long as they get their work done.

At Best Buy they found that when the workplace culture is changed, particularly by doing things like getting rid of the “sludge” talk in the office and making the programs available to all employees, there were great results. An example of “sludge” talk would be: “Oh, she’s a mom. She’s going to leave early.”

Some women choose to work less and stay at home. Others are made to choose that because of workplace sludge and discrimination, as well as lack of daycare and husbands who won’t do any housework.

Third, there’s the Steven Pinker method of discrimination. Telling women they’re inferior to men can get into their heads; it’s called the stereotype threat, and has been known to hamper the performance of women and minorities in tests even if all they had to do was fill in an oval for gender or race.

All of these are specifically about gender. There are a lot of things that affect men and women differently – sexual assault, war, welfare cuts, homicide, workplace accidents, union busting. But there’s little evidence that there is any discrimination going on with any of them; people don’t have more sympathy with female victims of union busting or male victims of sexual assault.

24 Responses to Gender Inequality

  1. Hujo says:

    Well why not continue this in the coments thread we where on?

    Jstor doest allow Canadians or something?

    “We’re sorry. You do not have access to JSTOR from your current location.”

    http://www.echidne-of-the-snakes.com/

    Goddes of the snakes huh? (FFEMINIST)

    Stereotype threat?

    Is that like being blamed for rapes responsibility just because you are a man or being labeled a potential rapist by feminist because of your penis? Or feeling you have to be the alpha male?

    Surly this does not affect women only. And it is very much in the mind no?

    I’m sorry dude my point was feminist say it over and over “discrimination”” and that doest make it true.

    They invent cute little flaky leftwing theories about intimidation and stereotypes and old boys clubs because there is no proof they are being forced not to take math science IT or trades in school or being forced out of high positions.

    They have equal opportunity, they do not take advantage.

    What you gave offered me is a view of your indoctrination nothing more.

    I have shown you men are abused almost as much as women I have shown you government dept Banning “white males”. I have shown you how equality laws discriminate against men, WHEREEVER and how dv laws treat men like the jew in nazi Germany, men are being arrested because there wives point a figure, “They are just men”

    Have any non-feminist links dude?

    Like perhaps a government survey or a survey from a large neutral stat org,something substantial

    I mean this is just feminist opinion from feminist blogs dude.

  2. Hujo says:

    In reality

    Actually they have more that equal rights and opportunity titleix, human rights laws that allow discrimination of men to advance women. The system is actually rigged in womens favor. But women are not taking advantage of their unfair privileges.

  3. Alon Levy says:

    Hujo, can you do me a favor and start making sense? Theories mean shit. Criticizing theories because you don’t like their conclusions is irrational. When I give evidence of discrimination, the proper response isn’t “No! I don’t believe it!”.

    JSTOR is probably just giving me a free pass because I’m on a university server. It’s weird – the paper’s format is no different from papers I could access for free in undergrad, when I surfed the internet on a non-university servers. Oh well. The study still concludes that equally qualified women get fewer upscale restaurant jobs than men (a weaker effect in the opposite direction applies to cheap restaurants, on the other hand).

  4. Hujo says:

    I was trying to make sense under an argument about equal rights but you segwayed.

    Our human rights laws state men in Canada simply can not be discriminated against because they are born men, therefore they deserve no human rights protection.

    You stated you feel these laws are fair because women ARE at an economic disadvantage, you stated that as fact, I asked you to give me CONCRETE examples, like a survey or stat, I did not ask for feminist theories that are based in ideology not fact.

    I am saying it is a FACT that women are not enrolling in trades, not enrolling in subjects that lead to a large paycheck, like science, math, and IT.

    You give me a survey about restaurants?

    It is also a fact that women benefited from title Ix while men are discriminated,

    http://hottopictalk.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=292

    it is also a fact that human rights laws discriminate against men in order to advance women, it is also a fact these laws can be applied to any area section of society were men feel there rights are violated, not just job equality, and in areas like nursing and teaching where men are the despaired group the laws cant be applied as they state men are not at equal risk of discrimination.

    These laws are what allow for vaw laws that have abused men arrested on their abusers word, titleix implementation that discriminates male sports teams or marketing standards biased policy that states men don’t need protection from negative portrayal, ANYTHING MAN.

    Canada human rights act section 16

    Canadian charter of human rights section 15 sub section 1

    (Because of the existence of vawa I am positive the states have similar laws)

    So I am saying feminist theories about “oppression” of women in the year 2006 is pure BS. The fact is women are now inherently privileged yet not taking advantage of it and the feminists are still claiming discrimination to maintain the validity of the movement but all this victim posturing does is cause REAL discrimination against men and enable women to stay out of field that will make them economically equal, the feminists tell them they wont be welcome but that is not fact.

    You are saying waitresses are vaguely discriminated against and this proves that women are at a greater economic disadvantage?

    I am saying the system has been tweaked to give women more than equal rights and more than equal opportunity and this has been done at the expense of men’s rights and opportunity.

    You are trying to prove to me this is ok. I don’t think you have yet.

  5. Katie Kish says:

    I can get onto JSTOR… and I’m not on a university server or anything. (And I’m in Canada JSTOR, so yes, it apparently allows Canadians.)

    Hujo… your refrence to Canada’s human rights act makes no sense in the context that you want them to make sense in.

    Your argument that laws discriminate against men is a moot point. That’s like saying we’re discriminating against white people because some places encourage the hiring of blacks.

    Of course the system has been tweaked to give women an advantage, if you haven’t noticed in almost all of human history (exception – minoans) women have been ‘less’ then men and have been given laughable opportunities. There are people today that still think like think – that women should be doing delicate jobs. There is still discrimination against women. Watch popular television shows or music videos.

    Women are still objectified, and still give a stupid stereotype that dictates that they should be “in the kictchen”. In fact, a friend of my sent me an invitation to a group on a social networking site that is called “help put women back in the kitchen with the other appliances”. I thought it was a joke – but it is a group of 300 university students who actually believe that women should not be in the workforce. When there are people like this, how can we say that women are getting all the credit they deserve? Sexism is not over, just as racism isn’t over.

    I’m not denying that men have a tough run too. They have a lot of stereotypes that they need to conform to to be given any sort of respect. Believe me, i recognize that – but just because men are having different problems than women doesn’t mean womens need to be ditched.

    It is a fact that in my highschool the guidence counselors reccommend that the girls stay in the artys programs and that the boys stay in the science program… How does this prepare a girl for getting into an IT job? I was the only girl in my programming class and was ridiculed for this until about 3/4 of the way through the class when they all found out I had the highest mark.

    I am trying very hard to take advantage of the favors that the government is doing for me, and that is what? Making room for us to be people too. Not making men any less than what they should be, but making room for women to florish. However – there are still people out there that don’t see women as equal at all. At my work our computers broke down, and I told my boss I could fix it. … And he didn’t let me – because I am a girl and he said that he had a guy coming in in 2 days that could fix it.

    pulling this “men-are-being-discriminated-against” bull shit is the worst way to go, because honestly, men have had the advantage for how long? Men have been opressing women for how long? some of the stupidest wars in the world have been started by who? Who always ends up staying home wtih the kids? … I think men can step down off their high horses a little bit to let the women have a bit of the ride.

  6. Hujo says:

    I was looking for proof Katie. Not blah blah blah. Yes feminist are good at regurgitating incorrect gender perceptions but can they prove what they say, popular demagogy is not proof.

    50 years ago all you needed to say was “blacks are criminals” and popular demagogy supported that statement. Now all you need to say is “the “colonial men” are discriminatory racists” and popular demagogy is the only thing that supports that statement, where is the proof?

    Katie men can not use the same hr laws in areas where there is disparity for men, they are “not most likely to be at a disadvantage”.

    I am currently involved in a human rights complaint, this is what basically happens when you are a man and you feel your rights are violated…

    They say, “cchr section 15 sub section 2, Fuck off you are born privileged”

    Why not do a little research, men are not protected under human right Canada because the are branded privileged based on feminist lobby theory.

    But real life facts point to a lack of interest in fields that could close the wage gap, not discrimination.

    So Katie you do indeed have more human rights, more protection from discrimination its been like this for decades, as well there are countless government programs exist to get women into trades and tech, yet you can go down to the universities and trade schools and see more men are still enrolling, you will also find it quite imposable to prevent women from enrolling as women actually have human rights in Canada and that would be discrimination, under the same laws you might be able to prevent men from enrolling as they are not at a disadvantage/ they have a genuine interest.

    You have theory I have facts, But it was the theory that changed the law.

    Equality laws should treat people equally if gives special treatment based on sex and skin color, they are supremacy laws, fundamentally there is no way around that.

  7. Hujo says:

    “section 15 subsection *1*” sorry NOT 2

  8. Katie Kish says:

    “Not blah blah blah. ”
    Hardy har…. … … *consideres making flip, sarcastic and bitchy comment*

    you dont have any facts.

    “I am saying it is a FACT that women are not enrolling in trades, not enrolling in subjects that lead to a large paycheck, like science, math, and IT.”

    Why aren’t they enrolling in trades? Why aren’t they enrolling in science, math and IT? Think of the causations.

    Hence my highschool story – we weren’t set up to have jobs in science, math and IT. The girls were purposly directed in the ‘arts’ path, because that’s apparently what we’re better at . Stereotyping. Discrimination. Fact.

    “Why not do a little research”
    Worst. Reply. Ever.
    “Yes feminist are good at regurgitating incorrect gender perceptions but can they prove what they say, popular demagogy is not proof.”
    …Why not do a little research?

  9. Alon Levy says:

    I was looking for proof Katie.

    And I provided some in the post. You just chose to ignore it.

  10. If you want some factual evidence of gender discrimination, look at the work of William T. Bielby in sociology. He’s done lots of work on the wage gap and discrimination in employment.

    The fact of gender discrimination is incontrovertible from the perspective of mainstream social science. It is well researched in sociology and social psychology. To claim that there is no gender-based oppression in 2006 is a mixture of wish-fulfillment and ignorance.

  11. Hujo says:

    You can go and see who is enrolling in what, fact, go see.

    Alon more men or women in your math couses?

    Why are they not enrolling um, lack of intrest, unless you can prove they are being turned away at the door, but you cant.

    Yes there is gender discriminiation against men and women and only women are protected.

    Alon do you have any articles from non feminist sites? That was my only complaint. I am sorry but in the last thread before the segway I provided lots of examples for my argument from non mra sites.

    If men and women are at equal risk of dv shouldn’t the laws reflect that? shouldn’t DV support reflect that? Shouldn’t women be aressted for dv in near equal numbers as men?

    They dont,It doesnt and they dont.

    “Gender discrimination can happen to men and women.”

    Is the above a fair statement?

    Why are men not equaly protected?

  12. Gender discrimination can happen to men and women. True enough. It can. On the other hand, as empirical work amply shows, it doesn’t happen to men and women equally. In the real world, here in the contemporary U.S., women are the target of gender discrimination in the workplace much more often. Because men are more likely to occupy positions of power, they are much more likely to be perpetrators of discrimination than its victims.

    When you consider these questions, you have to remember that the context is a stratified society. Privileged position confers power. Even if it were true that men and women are equally likely to be bigoted, the fact remains that men have a much greater opportunity to exercise discrimination because of the gender stratification in contemporary American society.

    A parallel argument can be made about racial discrimination. Yes, both blacks and whites can be prejudiced, but the two forms are not equivalent. White discrimination is backed up by social power, the privilege of being in the dominant group. This is exactly the same as gender discrimination.

    To try to make both kinds of gender discrimination equal is to ignore the fact of stratification. A good introductory course in sociology should remedy that error.

  13. Hujo says:

    Tim some nice points, thanks for the book referal, i will adress your post in detial later, i had come back to post this……

    http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/pdp-hrp/canada/guide/equality_e.cfm

    Section 15

    Equality Rights

    (All people are create equal)

    Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

    (some are more equal than others)

    Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

    Prove it gives women privilege and discriminates men? OK

    http://hottopictalk.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=47

    Stewardesses being payed less than highly skilled mechanics and trained pilots=
    Discrimination (equal pay for being a woman?)

    http://tinyurl.com/7pdcw

    Banning hiring people based on sex and skin color

    Not discrimination.

    (because men have less human rights protection)

  14. Hujo says:

    Ok Timothy, if I understand the 5 or so % of men with power justify the 95% of men without losing equal human rights protection?

    All men are not born into positions of power, this is fact, there are many males below poverty line, this is fact.

    I would like you to explain how 5% of elite men that are above the need for HR protection enable the whole of men to go without.

    Tim please understand that these laws can be apllied to anything not just job equity.

    Equlity laws now discriminate against men and create a society where women are more equal in the eyes of the law.

    What year was your book written? What is the date of the stats used?

    Progress is a two way street and times change, what do you think of my above post tim?

  15. Hujo says:

    Katie wrote

    “I’m not denying that men have a tough run too. They have a lot of stereotypes that they need to conform to to be given any sort of respect. Believe me, i recognize that – but just because men are having different problems than women doesn’t mean womens need to be ditched.”

    Katie i don’t mean to be rude, I am infact in the process of fighting unfair stereotypes of men but what is preventing that is our Canadian human rights laws.

    http://hottopictalk.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=344

    (This is why you can see men being slaped punched kicked in comercials but you dont see it for women. Equal means balance right?)

    My entire argument is that men and women should be treated equally in the eyes of the law and that should be reflected in marketing policy as media breeds stereotypes and men are not equally protected from negitve portrayal, in Canada, in 2006 , making it tuff for men.

  16. Alon Levy says:

    Alon do you have any articles from non feminist sites? That was my only complaint.

    The study was referenced on a feminist website, but published in a thoroughly mainstream publication.

    Ok Timothy, if I understand the 5 or so % of men with power justify the 95% of men without losing equal human rights protection?

    I’m positive I asked you to make sense. The 95% of men who don’t have that power aren’t subjected to gender discrimination.

    If men and women are at equal risk of dv shouldn’t the laws reflect that? shouldn’t DV support reflect that? Shouldn’t women be aressted for dv in near equal numbers as men?

    Yeah, they should. Only they’re not at equal risk, and even your own links prove that.

    Stewardesses being payed less than highly skilled mechanics and trained pilots=
    Discrimination (equal pay for being a woman?)

    See above about making sense. I’m not sure which argument you’re trying to refute here – certainly not mine, given that what you bring up isn’t what I said.

  17. Hujo says:

    Well i guess i dont share your opinion alon.

  18. Hujo says:

    Alon About post 13. I am showing how our “equal rights” laws give women privilege and discriminate against men, that’s the argument

    An academic should be smart enough decipher my lowbrow jive.

    Interesting that class is not a criterion of discrimination hey

  19. Hujo says:

    Alon regarding my stats..

    If it happens slightly more to one group the other group should lose equal HUMAN bleading RIGHTS protection? Not in my society I wont stand for that.

    And you ignore shelter support and female arrests for dv not reflecting my stats and you ignore the cnn article detailing abused men being arrested as under dv law that states what the WOMAN says goes. No rights for male VICTIMS? Not for me.

  20. Alon Levy says:

    You gave a CNN article that says something exists. There’s a far cry between “there exist male victims of DV who get screwed by the courts” and “there are non-sporadic cases of DV in which the man gets screwed.” When men constitute 50% of DV victims and are treated as badly as women are by the courts, VAWA will become obsolete.

    Well i guess i dont share your opinion alon.

    Hey, you’re entitled to your own opinion. What you’re claiming is the right to your own facts.

  21. Hujo says:

    I know all these posts are in poor form, its that I am busy, scattered and spread out,

    http://www.standyourground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11730
    Relates to my greater argument about perception of gender status influencing our society in away that creates unfair laws and grants female privilege and discriminates against men in general.

  22. Hujo says:

    “When men constitute 50% of DV victims and…*are treated as badly as women are by the courts*…., VAWA will become obsolete.”

    JAW is dropping

    I guess you would have more than “there exist female victims of DV who get screwed by the courts” ???

    “What you’re claiming is the right to your own facts.”

    It is my hope that my own facts and the cumulative facts of others and the support of 20,000 plus like-minded cunucks will see these laws removed within the next decade.

  23. Hujo says:

    OK So if I get this straight?

    The vast minority of elite being comprised of a majority of men is evident that the elite will be bigots and maintain a male privlaged society?

    First of it is sexist and demonizing to say men in power naturally create a sexist society that places men first with out evidance

    Glass cieling is merely a theory, we write laws based on theory? I have yet to find any evidence of women are being discriminated against in the areas of education and placement in top earning fields, unless there is more than random cases of women being denied acceptance in these courses or respective fields, there is no proof of a glass ceiling.

    In the now I see more systemic discrimination against men.

    This is why I am of the opinion the gender law is NOW a female supremacy law, it has nothing to do with equality anymore. White women especially can’t claim they are less privileged than white men in the now and at least in canada. However the gender law and DV law, and ad standards codes I am taking issue with apply to all men, giving all men of all races less protection.

    Not that it came up here at all but this is why when I hear the; “MRA’s are whiney white men” falsehood thing, I laugh at the sheer stupidity of such statements and how it is also revealing of the new societal prejudices that feminist and the PC influence created, I feel those movement boarder on hate movements in the now and I hope to prove it legally.

  24. Arnold32 says:

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